By Harry Esteve of The Oregonian staff

The ever-moving line that separates religion from government in the United States came under intense scrutiny Thursday night during a lively Portland debate between liberal lawyer Alan Dershowitz and conservative political strategist Ralph Reed.

Much of the discussion focused on President Bush's efforts to give federal money to "faith-based" organizations that help needy or troubled people.

Dershowitz, a Harvard law professor whose clients have included John Lennon and O.J. Simpson, called the proposal a dangerous mixing of dogma and dollars that telegraphs the president's coziness with the Christian right. Bush got off to a bad start when two ministers at his inauguration presented heavily Christian messages, he said.

"I worry deeply that what we're hearing is simply the camel's nose in the tent," Dershowitz said. "We're beginning with faith-based institution and state support of that, and the goal is to move toward the establishment of religion."

But Reed, the former director of the Christian Coalition who has worked closely with Bush on policy issues, chided Dershowitz for exaggerating the issue as one that threatens the country's long-standing "wall" between church and state.

"There's an attempt to make this appear more controversial than it is," Reed said of Bush's plan, which would give religious groups direct federal grants to be used for social services. Faith groups already receive enormous amounts of federal money for their humanitarian programs and have for years, he said.

Some people "believe politics should be a religion-free zone," Reed said. "They believe that religion, like pornography, should best be understood and enjoyed in private."

The new administration and most conservative Republicans believe that "faith has a role," Reed said, and "that government can embrace and accommodate faith without imposing it."

The debate was part of the Tom McCall Forum, which for 19 years has brought together high-profile representatives of the right and left political wings for an exchange of ideas. Founded and sponsored by Pacific University in Forest Grove, the forum has pitted the likes of Robert Kennedy Jr. against former Vice President Dan Quayle and Democratic strategist James Carville against his Republican wife, Mary Matalin.

Thursday night's event, held before an appreciative crowd in Arlene Schnitzer Concert Hall, upheld the tradition of candid and animated conversation. Dershowitz, a dramatic and flamboyant speaker, kept the audience entertained with impersonations and sharp one-liners. The more subdued Reed held his ground with pointed rebuttals and dry humor.

Dershowitz said Bush's efforts to incorporate religion into his leadership already have backfired, as mainstream churches become more and more nervous about the prospect of fringe religions applying for federal money. Already there has been concern expressed about the possibility of aid going to Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam or the Hare Krishnas.

"When the first group of witches come and stand outside with their cauldrons, asking for money, it's going to be a problem," Dershowitz said.

Those concerns could lead to the government establishing a list of "approved" religions, which is an obvious infringement on the First Amendment, Dershowitz said.

Reed said the government would be free to reject applications from groups that discriminate or disregard the civil rights of others but would not make distinctions based on religious beliefs.